Episode 3
Always-On Anya: Setting Boundaries with an Overcommunicating Boss
Episode: Always-On Anya: Setting Boundaries with an Overcommunicating Boss
Link: https://thehrmediators.captivate.fm/episode/always-on-anya-setting-boundaries-with-a-over-communicating-boss
What this episode’s about:
An hourly lead’s manager won’t stop calling on her days off and threatens demotion when she pushes back. We unpack how to set firm, respectful boundaries, when to loop in HR, and why power can erode empathy.
Why listen:
You’ll get practical tips for a hard conversation as well as engaging HR and psychology perspectives on control, fear of failure, empathy, and more to help you protect your time without burning bridges.
Key takeaways
- Lead with data and What's In It For Me (WIIFM): Bring specifics (“10 calls on my day off”) and frame solutions that help the manager (on-call rotation, clear escalation paths), not just you.
- Take action and utilize your resources: Document time worked off the clock, document your conversations, and reach out to HR for help.
- Target the root cause: Promotion-seeking, loneliness, fear, control, or attraction require different strategies. Avoid power struggles, use assertive (not aggressive) language, and keep safety front and center.
Resources
- Humanalysts, on LinkedIn - We recommend following Dr. Nicole at Humanalysts for more information about workplace trauma. This topic came up when we mentioned that overcontrolling is a trauma response, and the work of Dr. Nicole came to mind.
- Power and Perspective Not Taken - Read more about how people in power may exhibit a lack of empathy.
- Stanford Prison Experiment
- Courage Coaching - Excellent coach with great resources on how to navigate relationships with narcissists.
- The Assertiveness Workbook - Additional details on The Assertiveness Workbook by Randy Paterson.
- Hours of Work Policy: Nonexempt Employee Electronic Communications - Resource to design hourly work policies.
- Fact Sheet #22: Hours Worked Under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) - Information on hourly worker standards in the US
- Mid-Market Enterprise Economy Report 2024 - Information on small and middle market growth (2024).
Reach out for guidance: TheHRManagers@Gmail.com
Website: TheHRMediators.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thehrmediators/
About the show
Workplace conflict is inevitable, but with Karen & Kendra’s mix of HR savvy, mediation experience, psychology insights, and humor, you’ll learn to turn conflict into connection.
Credits
Music: Farben by MagnusMoone
Notes
If this helped, please follow the show and send this episode to at least one coworker. Rate & review: A quick ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on your podcast platform of choice helps others find us.
Hosts
Karen Gleason & Kendra Beseler
© 2025 The HR Mediators
Privacy note: These are inspired by real experiences, but we change all identifying details, adjust timelines, and blend similar accounts.
Transcript
Foreign hello and welcome to the HR Mediators Podcast, where we navigate workplace conflict one coffee chat at a time.
Speaker A:Our goal is to help you build skills to better navigate challenging workplace conflicts with compassion, grace and ease.
Speaker A:I'm Karen, certified HR Professional and Mediator and founder of Common Ground hr.
Speaker B:And I'm Kendra, also a certified HR Professional and mediator.
Speaker B:Together we bring over 30 years of HR experience and 15 years of mediation practice, and we've teamed up to answer your questions around workplace conflict.
Speaker B:Grab your coffee and let's get started.
Speaker B:A quick note about the scope of this podcast.
Speaker B:We are certified Mediators with deep experience in HR and conflict resolution.
Speaker B:We are not lawyers, therapists, or licensed counselors.
Speaker B:Nothing shared here should be considered professional advice related to any of those fields.
Speaker B:Think of these scenarios as food for thought.
Speaker B:Take what resonates, leave what doesn't, and be sure to trust your own judgment.
Speaker A:Thanks, Kendra.
Speaker A:For anyone new here, we start each episode by reading a scenario inspired by real workplace experiences.
Speaker A:To protect privacy, we change all identifying details, adjust timelines, and blend similar accounts.
Speaker A:Workplace conflicts often sound familiar, but any resemblance to specific people or organizations is purely coincidental.
Speaker A:Today's story comes from someone we'll call always on Anya, who writes my manager, I'm going to call him.
Speaker A:David is constantly calling and texting me whether I'm at work or if it's on one of my days off.
Speaker A:If I don't answer, he will actually just keep calling until I pick up.
Speaker B:Oh no, that's aggressive.
Speaker A:He's he asks about orders and shipments and it doesn't usually seem like an emergency and he could call someone else who is on shift.
Speaker A:I'm a lead and am a high performer at work, but I'm not salaried and should at least be getting paid for this.
Speaker A:He's been doing this for most of the year.
Speaker A:He started shortly after I became the lead.
Speaker A:I've already tried to tell him I may not always be able to pick up and have a conversation with him at any old time of the day.
Speaker A:In particular when it's my day off, he just tells me his questions are critical and the business needs to be functioning fully at all times.
Speaker A:And he says if I can't support that, then I'm not properly committed.
Speaker A:Then he threatens to demote me.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:And find someone else who can be the lead who can answer at any time, even while away from work.
Speaker A:Okay, so he's going to have somebody else do it if she won't.
Speaker A:This is a small company which has been in business for around 20 plus years with the same owner.
Speaker A:I and it's not in a high growth phase where you might expect more high stakes, actual urgent work.
Speaker A:I think my manager is trying to become more visible with the owner, who is his boss, so he can move up.
Speaker A:But he's hard to work for.
Speaker A:I'd love to tell him off, but the work itself is interesting and there are a lot of great people who work here.
Speaker A:What can I do?
Speaker B:Oh, great questions.
Speaker B:All right, Anya, thank you so much for reaching out.
Speaker B:Before we continue, we want to invite our listeners to briefly pause the podcast and ask yourself some questions.
Speaker B:We'll play some music while you think about what the problems are here.
Speaker B:What emotions does this bring up for you?
Speaker B:What action would you take to move forward in this situation?
Speaker B:We'll be right back with you after a brief musical interlude.
Speaker A:All right, we hope you had some good time to ponder on those questions that Kendra brought up and we are ready to chat about this.
Speaker A:Shall we?
Speaker B:Let's do it.
Speaker B:Karen.
Speaker A:Well, this seems to be really bothering her a lot, which is understandable.
Speaker A:The manager saying it's urgent, but it doesn't sound like it's an emergency and so she's not feeling just some basic respect from him.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it sounds like she really wants to be a high performer, well respected in her job and she wants to have a work life balance.
Speaker B:She as working professionals, we both know that that is something that a lot of people struggle with.
Speaker B:How do you balance those things, especially with this highly demanding manager?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And she said she just got the lead role within the last year, so she's new in the level and wanting to make a good impression.
Speaker A:She says she is a high performer, so she's doing some amount of really good work, at least in her opinion.
Speaker A:We don't have his side of the story here, but sure.
Speaker A:But it's an interesting situation and I think that people do experience this a lot.
Speaker A:I think there are probably some people who would see interruptions off hours as kind of a natural part of the job, depending on what they do.
Speaker A:And if they're really high level, they just have a critical role during a project that's approaching a deadline or something like that.
Speaker A:It doesn't sound like that's what's happening here though, which makes it a little more interesting.
Speaker B:And if they're salaried.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like that's a critical part here.
Speaker B:She's saying she's an hourly employee.
Speaker B:Like that brings up a lot of concerns for me.
Speaker A:It does.
Speaker A:I mean, the company could be non compliant with The Fair Labor Standards Act.
Speaker A:We'll talk about that a little bit more when we talk about HR stuff.
Speaker A:I mean, she didn't say if she's getting time entered into the pay system for this extra work.
Speaker A:We might not know the whole story, but it doesn't sound good from a pay compliance standpoint.
Speaker A:And they worry about our constant interruptions, too.
Speaker A:And, I mean, that prevents people from recharging.
Speaker A:I think when you're a manager and you're asking for people to contribute and work in times where they aren't normally doing that, I think that you really have to be choosy and decide if it's really the right time to do that and if it's appropriate to do that, because you do run the risk that they're going to feel not respected and you do run the risk that they're not going to be recharged when they come back to work the next day.
Speaker A:And just that the psychological effect of not feeling respected and getting asked to do things that you're not getting paid for and things like that.
Speaker A:She probably feels a little bit of almost outrage, and it's probably affecting her resilience and harder to do the job potentially, too.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think those are all great points.
Speaker A:Anything else we should talk about before we switch into the next segment here?
Speaker B:No, I think our listeners are probably ready for the short answer.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:We do give you a short answer for anyone who wants to get right to the point.
Speaker A:But we do hope you'll stay.
Speaker A:But because we will share our thoughts and opinions from a variety of perspectives during the rest of the podcast, here's the short answer.
Speaker A:We think Anya should talk to this manager.
Speaker A:If she feels she can do it safely, she should be curious, stay open, and she might even consider going to HR because we have some concerns about the situation and talking with HR may just stop the behavior.
Speaker A:I'd also add that people in positions of power can actually see their empathy reduce over time, and we're going to talk about the psychology behind that.
Speaker A:Overall, though, try to understand the reason for his constant communication.
Speaker A:Anya, when you go and you talk to him and then try to adopt an approach that aligns with David's underlying interests and needs.
Speaker A:And we're going to talk so much more about that today.
Speaker A:There is the short answer.
Speaker A:You have it, if you like to get right to the point.
Speaker A:But I think we are ready to talk some more about this.
Speaker A:Shall we?
Speaker B:Yeah, let's dive in deeper.
Speaker B:So during our conversation, we are going to start by looking at this from a broad Perspective.
Speaker B:And then as we dig in, we'll look at it from a few other angles, like conflict resolution, human human resources, and psychology.
Speaker B:We're bringing our wisdom from our education, our experience working in Fortune 100 companies, volunteering, and running our own business.
Speaker A:Thanks, Kendra.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, it sounds to me like Anya wants to keep the job, but just get rid of the manager.
Speaker A:Or she's hoping he'll have a personality transplant.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:So since that's not a thing, she's hoping to improve the situation.
Speaker A:So she will want to try to talk to the.
Speaker A:The manager if that feels at all safe to do.
Speaker B:I think it's important for her to remember as she goes into this that she can't fix him.
Speaker B:But if she can try to understand him, then I think we'll help her figure out the best strategy to navigate that relationship and move forward.
Speaker B:Would you be okay if we took a little bit of a detour and talked about, like, the possible roots of her manager's constant communication?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, what could be behind this?
Speaker A:What are all the potentials for that?
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:I think that's a great idea to talk about.
Speaker A:I think that if she can get some context on what's driving the need for them for the calls, and if she can be curious and maybe ask about his expectations, as well as a few overarching thoughts about the conversation with him, I think those are worth keeping in mind as she sits down to talk to him about it.
Speaker A:And she's probably going to be pretty nervous about it.
Speaker A:And I love that you want to talk about some of the possible reasons that could be driving his behavior, because that's what we talk about when we talk about perspective taking.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's so important for conflict resolution.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker B:Well, I was brainstorming.
Speaker B:What do I think maybe David's underlying issues are?
Speaker B:I came up with a list.
Speaker B:Tell me your thoughts and see if you're in agreement with what these might be.
Speaker B:I'm just going to go through them kind of quickly.
Speaker B:The first one I thought is, okay, maybe he is trying to get that owner attention.
Speaker B:It seems like that is Anya's perspective that she.
Speaker B:What she thinks is happening.
Speaker B:He's trying to get the owner attention.
Speaker B:Maybe it's for a promotion or a raise or some other workplace advantage.
Speaker B:We don't know.
Speaker B:She did say it's a small company and he's already reporting to the owner.
Speaker B:Is it likely that he can actually get a promotion?
Speaker B:And so I did kind of look into some stats on that, and I found it really interesting just A random shout out to a stat that I discovered.
Speaker B: But according to LinkedIn's: Speaker B:So I think it depends on how she's defining small company.
Speaker B:So we don't really know.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Anyway, so maybe it is promotion, maybe it's other things.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Also, then, is he lonely?
Speaker B:So this is the second idea that I had.
Speaker B:Is he lonely or trying to avoid something in his personal life and then using work to really connect with others and avoid those personal issues?
Speaker B:That's my second thought.
Speaker B:I can see that third hypothesis.
Speaker B:He feels powerless in his own life, which kind of relates to the second one, but a little different.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:And so he's exerting power on Anya to make him feel better about himself.
Speaker B:That's my third, my fourth hypothesis.
Speaker B:Maybe he is attracted to her or interested in her.
Speaker B:We've definitely seen those situations come up.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Two things to talk to hr.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker B:And maybe he's trying to find ways to, like, connect with her more because of that attraction.
Speaker B:Maybe he doesn't even realize that that's there.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:He could be subconscious.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:He's not asking her out.
Speaker B:And then last hypothesis is maybe it's a fear of failure.
Speaker B:Maybe he thinks that he can avoid failure by keeping this iron grip on everything and controlling everything that's coming their way.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love those.
Speaker B:Those are my six hypotheses.
Speaker A:I love those.
Speaker B:But then I was thinking, okay, well, if those are the six hypotheses for maybe what could be the underlying issue, how would I approach it in that situation based on my education and my experience?
Speaker B:So I think if you're okay with it, I'd like to slow down as we go through the conflict resolution and then talk about, like, our thoughts on how we might address each of those issues just briefly.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah, go.
Speaker A:Go for it.
Speaker A:Let's do it.
Speaker B:So before going into the details of those, I feel like in any situation, you have to have that hard conversation with the manager, regardless of what his underlying issues are.
Speaker B:She has to have a hard conversation.
Speaker B:She needs to firmly set expectations of communication and boundaries.
Speaker B:And I think there's a really great opportunity here for them to partner together to find a better solution, like maybe using situation Behavior impact.
Speaker B:So, like, on my days off, I receive 10 calls from you about orders.
Speaker B:When I pick up, it really extends my work week and interrupts my rest.
Speaker B:So how can we work together to create a 24,7 coverage using the resources available to us, like a rotating on call something.
Speaker B:So I think those two things are really essential, regardless of the underlying issues here.
Speaker A:I love that approach.
Speaker A:And that brings to mind two things for me, which is leading with data.
Speaker B:Yes, love that.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I'm getting 10 calls a day.
Speaker A:Like actually 10 calls a day.
Speaker A:That's what's happening.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And also the what's in it for me approach.
Speaker A:And not what's in it for Anya, but Anya approaching it from what's in it for David.
Speaker B:So critical.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because no matter what's going on for him, he cares about his best interest, clearly.
Speaker A:Maybe he cares about hers too.
Speaker A:We don't really know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But framing it in terms of how can we work on this together so we can make this a successful situation very much appeals to the what's in it for him approach.
Speaker B:That's such a great point, Karen.
Speaker B:And I'll just call out that that is something that we should always keep in mind in every communication and conversation we have in our lives because people are much more likely to listen to if we always assess it from what's in it for them.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Ties very closely with perspective.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:But it's more of an action.
Speaker B:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Okay, so let's dive into the hypotheses that I came up with.
Speaker A:Sounds great.
Speaker A:Let's do it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:So the first one, he wants a promotion, raise or other workplace advantage, owner attention, et cetera.
Speaker B:I was thinking in this situation, I would try to become his most trusted partner, really understand his goals through the conversations that we have, and then work on a plan that meets his needs and helps establish boundaries between them so that they can be working towards the same goals together.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:What would you add to that?
Speaker A:Well, and without knowing what their scenario is exactly and what they're working through, that's the tough thing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Through these conversations, people can get more information and really build that in a back and forth type of approach, which is what you want, that is how you can build partnerships.
Speaker B:Hopefully he's open to that.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:It seems like there might be an underlying trust issue here too.
Speaker B:So if she can build a trusted partnership with him, then I think that could really help them.
Speaker A:Especially if he's an over controller.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then he would benefit from having some increased trust in her.
Speaker A:And if she can help have a partnership with him so that they can build that together, that's going to be a win win.
Speaker A:If that works.
Speaker B:Agreed.
Speaker B:Okay, second hypothesis.
Speaker B:He's lonely or avoiding something in his personal life.
Speaker B:I have seen this happen.
Speaker B:I know this happens.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:It does.
Speaker B:People don't want to deal with those issues in their personal life.
Speaker B:You know, maybe they need to address some marital issues and problems with the kids, but they don't want to do it.
Speaker B:It's too hard.
Speaker B:So it's easier to avoid it and dive deep into work or maybe lonely.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so maybe they don't have anybody at home, so they're working 50, 60 hours a week.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:This is a harder one.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker B:Okay, what I would do, and I'm not saying this is right at all, but what I would do is I would try to understand what his interests are.
Speaker B:Like, does he like cycling?
Speaker B:Is he into bowling?
Speaker B:Whatever.
Speaker B:Right, okay.
Speaker B:And then I would try to like, oh, I happen to be reading on this meetup group that they have a bowling club on Wednesday nights.
Speaker B:You should check it out and just kind of give him some ideas, because maybe he hasn't thought of those things, and maybe he does have other passions he'd like to explore.
Speaker B:And he could get friends outside of work that would help fill that lonely bucket.
Speaker B:Give him some hobbies and get him not working so much.
Speaker B:So he's not making Anya work so much.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And this is emotional labor.
Speaker B:Yeah, it is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, that's a great idea.
Speaker B:I mean, it's a little sneaky, but I think it could be beneficial if that's his underlying issue.
Speaker A:It may just really take care of it, though.
Speaker A:I mean, if that's what's going on.
Speaker A:I just love that.
Speaker A:I love that so much.
Speaker B:Okay, third hypothesis.
Speaker B:Unless you have anything to add to that.
Speaker A:No, no, no.
Speaker A:Okay, you're on a roll.
Speaker A:Keep going.
Speaker B:Okay, third hypothesis.
Speaker B:He is feeling powerless in his life and is exerting power on Anya to make him feel better.
Speaker A:Oh, that's not good.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:This is my least favorite hypothesis, and I really hope that this is not the case, but I have seen this happen.
Speaker B:People absolutely do this.
Speaker B:It's terrible.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And this one's really hard to navigate.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think this is a tough one.
Speaker B:A direct approach is only going to make it worse because then that makes him feel more powerless.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So that's not a great thing.
Speaker B:I feel like HR being involved could be really valuable, especially from the perspective of fair pay, working off hours when she is not a salaried employee.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think that's a good idea.
Speaker A:Get some input, get some guidance, that sort of thing.
Speaker A:It is difficult to deal with individuals who are truly just trying to exert power.
Speaker A:That's a tricky situation to be in.
Speaker A:For those situations.
Speaker A:I think it's important to focus on the behaviors more than maybe in other types of situations to, you know, have some documentation and just really be able to be specific about what they are doing.
Speaker A:You really don't want to go to the HR department without some of that.
Speaker A:I mean, you can, but.
Speaker A:But it's best to go with a bit of information about specifically what they're doing.
Speaker A:She would not be the first one to go to the HR office and say, feel like this is happening.
Speaker B:That happens all the time.
Speaker A:I think he's exerting power just for the sake of exerting power.
Speaker A:She would not be the first one to do that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But it gives her more credibility if she can come with some sort of evidence or documentation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And being more likely to really be able to move the needle on this situation if that's what's going on.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think, like, absolutely.
Speaker B:She needs to avoid a power struggle with him because she's gonna lose.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And I don't see her talking to him.
Speaker A:And we were talking a little bit ago about, keep an open mind, try to understand where he's coming from.
Speaker A:He's probably not going to outright say, I'm doing this because I need power.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:I'm doing this because I'm lonely and I want friends to go with.
Speaker A:She's going to have to use some of that ability to interpret.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:So my next hypothesis is that he's attracted to or interested in Anya and trying to find ways to connect with her more regularly.
Speaker A:Oh, boy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Another reason to go to hr maybe.
Speaker B:Potentially.
Speaker A:Potentially.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker A:Wait, did I already say that?
Speaker B:I think that a lot of the times it can be subconscious.
Speaker B:If there's, like, an underlying, like, sexual attraction or like, whatever to somebody, people might not even realize that that's happening.
Speaker B:Right, sure.
Speaker A:And if not acting on it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, well, he might be, but in an unconscious sort of indirect way.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:He's not asking her out or touching her inappropriately or anything like that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Thankfully, yes.
Speaker B:Hopefully not ever, but definitely not now.
Speaker B:So that's good.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:I think my approach in this situation, again, I don't know this is right or wrong, but I would say that if you have a significant other, I would start talking about them more and probably in, like, a positive light.
Speaker B:I want to call out that think that this is really a straight cisgender privilege that I have.
Speaker B:Being married to a man and being cisgender.
Speaker B:It's probably more challenging if you're queer because then depending on laws and the current state of human rights and things like that, you might not feel safe talking about your significant other.
Speaker A:That's a great point.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you have to be careful with that.
Speaker B:And I'm sorry, that really sucks.
Speaker B:And I wish that wasn't the way the world is.
Speaker B:But make sure you understand your company culture, your city culture, state, country, and make sure you're not putting yourself or your family at risk talking about your queer relationship at work.
Speaker B:Again, advice terrible.
Speaker B:But also be safe.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So that's what I would do.
Speaker B:And I would really avoid spending one on one time with him, Especially in environments that could be considered more intimate, like late working nights, darkened environments, romantic atmospheres.
Speaker A:The two of them are staying together on site till whatever time of the night.
Speaker A:I see that picture.
Speaker B:It gets riskier, right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And then if you do have to travel for work, I think avoiding drinking together could be really valuable.
Speaker A:That's a great point.
Speaker B:Because when you are drinking, your inhibitions are lowered and you might say or do things that might give him the wrong idea.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So just be careful.
Speaker A:Well, this got all kinds of interesting.
Speaker B:Yes, Well, I. Yeah, I think this is really fascinating.
Speaker A:No, these are great points you're bringing up.
Speaker B:And then another thing is that the way that a lot of the time work infidelities start or work inappropriate work relationships start is because of vulnerability.
Speaker B:Oversharing.
Speaker B:I think it's always good advice to avoid oversharing at work anyway.
Speaker B:But also, men are great in a lot of ways.
Speaker B:But one of the ways that maybe they're not so great sometimes is that stroking egos is really important to a lot of men.
Speaker B:Not all men.
Speaker B:Not all men.
Speaker B:I don't want to say that at all.
Speaker B:But being careful not to give him too much praise or stroke his ego too much, because that might just deepen that.
Speaker A:Yeah, it might give him the wrong impression.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then if at any point this starts to feel violating, then it's probably time to loop in HR or the skip level manager or both.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And we're really talking about that zone where nothing has happened.
Speaker A:And we're trying to keep it that way.
Speaker B:Yes, exactly.
Speaker B:The preventative, like you see some red flags on the horizon and you're trying to like walk away from the red flags.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Nothing specific, but just.
Speaker B:Uh huh.
Speaker B:So this is just a hypothesis.
Speaker B:It's very possible he has no attraction or interest in Anya at all.
Speaker B:It's really important to keep that realistic view of the world.
Speaker B:Make sure that you're assessing things accurately.
Speaker B:Maybe ask for a friend for a second opinion.
Speaker B:You know, maybe don't assume but also be aware.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:I totally agree.
Speaker A:You don't want to over rotate on something that isn't happening.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:It makes for a very interesting conversation to think about though, is all of these possibilities.
Speaker A:I love that you just talked about advice from friends though, because I just wanted to mention this.
Speaker A:Sometimes people will go talk to their mom, their bff, whoever.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And not all of the advice that you get is going to be useful or realistic when you're just talking with friends because they also want you to feel better too.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, or they might be not wanting to get into the conversation as much and they might say crazy stuff like block his number or every time he calls you, even if it's for 10 minutes, add a full hour to your time card, which I've heard people say, stuff like that.
Speaker A:It might not be good advice.
Speaker A:It could even get you in trouble at work.
Speaker A:So be careful about asking friends and trying to take all of their input.
Speaker A:You're really going to have to sift through the ideas that you get.
Speaker A:Take some deep breaths and try to find a rational approach given the specific situation.
Speaker B:Great point.
Speaker B:Okay, the last hypothesis is fear of failure.
Speaker B:So he wants to control everything.
Speaker B:I think in this situation I would try to better understand what he's afraid of.
Speaker B:Really get into that.
Speaker B:Something that you might ask is like, okay, what's the worst possible outcome or the worst case scenario that you think could happen?
Speaker B:And then helping him create a plan to make sure that he's looped in at the right times and make sure that those things do not happen, I think could help him feel better.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So if she finds out that that's what's going on because he shared that with her specifically, especially if he's articulated that that bodes well for the future of them working together, building trust.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker A:That will get them into a much better partnership.
Speaker A:Unless he shared it.
Speaker A:He's being vulnerable.
Speaker A:They've built something and he just cannot not control everything.
Speaker A:Yeah, but, yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:That's a trauma response to over controlling.
Speaker B:Oh, that's a great point.
Speaker A:I don't know if she's in the spot to suggest that he go get some therapy or use the company's employee assistance program for a few sessions or something like that.
Speaker A:Anybody could use that kind of stuff and probably do well with it.
Speaker A:But if he just can't stop being in that over controlling mode even after they've talked, then hopefully he can do that.
Speaker A:But we're talking to Anya today, not the manager.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, we don't have him too.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:What are you doing, man?
Speaker B:But on that note of the eap, I feel like that's a great transition point to our HR perspectives that because we've already spent a lot of time on conflict resolution.
Speaker B:What do you think?
Speaker A:Right, yeah.
Speaker A:Let's transition into it.
Speaker A:I do think the EAP is a great idea, actually.
Speaker A:I mean, she can definitely benefit from that and she can talk a little bit more specifically in a back and forth conversation with a trained professional to help her kind of manage her emotions about the situation too, which is super useful if you're going to go and have a hard conversation.
Speaker A:That is something I would always recommend.
Speaker A:And I know that's a little bit more from a conflict resolution standpoint, but when people come to you in the HR office and they're going through something difficult.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:That is square in the camp of HR and management and co workers.
Speaker A:Anybody can recommend eap, so it's good stuff if your company has one.
Speaker A:And if not, also using your healthcare benefits for a little bit more ongoing therapy.
Speaker A:Because I think EAP often covers maybe three sessions for one issue or something like that.
Speaker A:But there's a whole lot of variety on what's out there and what's covered, so it's worth looking into.
Speaker A:A lot of times it doesn't cost.
Speaker B:Anything for those few sessions, which is really nice benefit.
Speaker A:It is, yeah.
Speaker A:That's great.
Speaker A:Huge.
Speaker A:So if I'm the HR person for this, definitely want to know why is he calling her off hours and is she being paid for it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I'll tell you, it's.
Speaker A:It's hard for me to think about this situation from a conflict resolution standpoint without knowing these things.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I just really want to know what's.
Speaker B:Going on and then like, looking at it from internally, like, what internal HR policies already exist around this.
Speaker A:Yep, exactly.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:And if we don't have one, then maybe it's time to make one.
Speaker B:I have a link that I'll include in the show notes.
Speaker B:That's Sherm.
Speaker B:My God.
Speaker A:Society for Human Resource Management.
Speaker B:Yes, thank you for saving me there.
Speaker B:So it's a SHRM link for how to, like some verbiage for how to set up a hourly employee policy at a company.
Speaker B:So I'll include that in the show notes for anyone interested.
Speaker A:That'll be a good one.
Speaker A:So along those lines of, like, what's going on specifically, I also really want to know more about why he is threatening to demote her.
Speaker A:So we talked about a lot of different possibilities.
Speaker A:I think he's probably not romantically interested in her so much if he's threatening to demote her.
Speaker A:I mean, still could be.
Speaker A:And, you know, maybe this is going in a difficult direction and it's not going well.
Speaker B:Fifty Shades of Gray lately.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:We don't know why he's doing that stuff, do we?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker A:But yeah, I do want to know why.
Speaker A:Why is he threatening to demote her and what language is he using about that topic?
Speaker A:Because it sounds bad.
Speaker A:Seriously.
Speaker A:Like, if he's lobbing out demotion threats and he's not paying her properly, that just needs to stop immediately.
Speaker A:And my very next conversation might be with his boss.
Speaker A:So it's just really important to know those things.
Speaker A:I would do my best to take some deep breaths if she came into the office and hear her out, but boy, do I want to know those things.
Speaker A:They would be talking with leadership to determine what approach to take with this manager about his communication that might be doing that.
Speaker A:What do they know about what's happening too?
Speaker A:Depending on what she's claiming here and what our policies are about it too.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the laws.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Laws might apply.
Speaker A:I'm gonna assume that the company is set up to observe the laws and is either at least meeting those or doing one better, but he might not be compliant.
Speaker A:So that's a good point because if I'm talking to his boss, we don't just need to soft fluffy communication approach.
Speaker A:That might be a bit more of a stern conversation about him following the, you know, the requirements of the Fair Labor Standards act, for example.
Speaker A:That is a law and it's perfectly within the camp of HR to have that conversation.
Speaker A:If she's not bringing up a safety concern, then if she was, they, you know, we might have to do something to separate them.
Speaker A:But if she's not, they probably don't need to be kept apart while this is being reviewed.
Speaker A:But it needs a more formal review more than likely here, just from what I'm hearing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Again, if I'm the HR person, though, I'm also just going to have this sinking feeling about how long this is going on.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because there could be back pay involved.
Speaker A:Work hasn't been documented, and I'm just thinking that's not going to be fun to work through.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:For Anya, from an HR perspective, I think she really needs to start documenting everything.
Speaker B:The calls she's getting, the time she's spending.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Every conversation should Be followed up with an email summarizing the conversation, which I know is terrible and a ton of work, but she's got to start protecting herself, especially when she's having conversations about setting boundaries.
Speaker B:She should also probably start to understand the laws that apply to her based on city, state, country for labor laws related to hourly employees.
Speaker B:I know that's not her job, but having a basic understanding of that can be really valuable as she's having those conversations with hr.
Speaker B:I feel like I've covered everything that I want to cover in hr.
Speaker B:How about you?
Speaker A:The only thing I'd add too is if we're looking into this, it could actually result in a write up or performance plan for the manager or if he's done something like this before or if it's super egregious, potentially termination.
Speaker A:For almost every concerning behavior at work, it's really important to get whichever points of view are necessary to understand what happened, including the point of view of the person who's being accused of the behavior before you take action.
Speaker B:Great point.
Speaker A:Psychology perspective.
Speaker A:Next.
Speaker B:Yeah, let's talk about psychology.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:I have this former coworker who recommended this book to me called the Assertiveness Workbook that he was going through and it was helping him a ton of.
Speaker B:I won't shout out him here because I don't know if he'd want me to, but that's by Dr. Randy Peterson.
Speaker B:So I got it and I started going through it.
Speaker B:There's some really good stuff in there.
Speaker B:I want to specifically call out chapter 15 where it talks about making requests without controlling others, where you describe the situation to be as clear as you can without making a long speech, you express what you need.
Speaker B:The emphasize the positive, stay calm, use I statements and then you specify what you would like to happen.
Speaker B:This is really similar to Marshall Rosenberg's approach that's outlined in nonviolent communication.
Speaker A:But I just thinking about that.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's just another framing of the same kind of concepts.
Speaker B:And it's just about being assertive.
Speaker B:And sometimes people view assertiveness in a negative light.
Speaker B:But being assertive is not the same thing as being aggressive.
Speaker B:Being assertive is being able to stand up for what you need without violating others.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And I do think I'll just say here that I think assertiveness can be a very fine line, especially for women.
Speaker B:You have to be careful as a woman, which is unfortunate, especially if his underlying issue is his desire to exert power over others and she has to be very careful.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But there have been a Ton of studies out there that have been over the last several decades that show that assertive women are less respected than men who show the same level of assertiveness.
Speaker B:So I think there's really good tools out there for her to learn how to have these assertive conversations, but it is going to be challenging to navigate that.
Speaker B:Really deepening those skills, I think will be really valuable for her.
Speaker A:I think those are really good guidelines for her to think about as she's having the conversation.
Speaker A:And I love that we do that here.
Speaker A:I know in the short answer we say, hey, she should go talk to him if it's safe to do so, but we really unpack a lot of it here.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And give some guidance about how to have that conversation.
Speaker A:And I love that you've always got books ready, books at the ready.
Speaker B:At least one book per podcast.
Speaker B:That's my promise.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker A:And that is true.
Speaker A:I mean, unfortunately, right.
Speaker A:As women, we are more likely to be seen in a very negative light if we're being assertive.
Speaker A:The psychology piece that I had in my mind about this one is that power is associated with lower empathy.
Speaker B:That's so interesting.
Speaker B:Okay, say more.
Speaker A:That's what came to mind for me.
Speaker A:So when you have power over others, when you have control over important resources and you are the one who has that influence over things like their pay, their job security, you are, according to research, not as good at perspective taking.
Speaker A:And so we may have some people listening who are managers and executives are thinking, well, that's not true.
Speaker A:I'm very supportive of my team.
Speaker A:I, you know, think of them in their best interest all the time and things like that.
Speaker A:And, and maybe that's true.
Speaker B:If you're listening to our podcast, you probably do care.
Speaker B:You probably do have empathy.
Speaker A:Fair point.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You're not the people that Karen's talking about.
Speaker B:Don't worry.
Speaker A:On a whole other topic, people who display narcissistic tendencies, one of the hallmarks of that is they do not self reflect.
Speaker A:So this is a great point you just raised because if someone's listening here, they're probably a more reflective person.
Speaker A:I love that you just mentioned that.
Speaker A:Go ahead.
Speaker B:Well, as you're talking about this, this makes me think of that like historic, well known Stanford prison experiment where they do what I'm talking about, where they like simulated a two week experiment where they either made students or participants.
Speaker B:I think they're mostly students at Stanford, but they made them either prisoners or prison guards.
Speaker B:And the more power they had, the less empathy that they had.
Speaker B:And so it Feels like these things are really aligned.
Speaker A:Yes, that is a great one.
Speaker A:I'm bummed I didn't think of that before, but I'm glad you thought of it just now.
Speaker B:Love that.
Speaker B:I mean, it's a terrible experiment.
Speaker B:It turned out really awful.
Speaker B:If you want to read about it, you should.
Speaker A:Yeah, I did.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:Not great.
Speaker B:But it really does kind of prove the point that you're making.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It wouldn't pass an ethics board today.
Speaker B:No, I don't think so.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But if you were in a position of power, you have more access to resources and you don't depend on other people the same way your direct report depends on do.
Speaker A:And then also you can do a lot without a full understanding of everyone on your team.
Speaker A:And you can start to see them more as commodities, especially if you have a large team or if you get assigned a really full workload aside from your actual job of managing people.
Speaker A:So how often have we seen that?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Oh, I have 30 direct reports and a business partner that takes up 30 plus hours of my week.
Speaker A:So where's the time to actually manage people for that person?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:That makes a difficult situation too.
Speaker B:Even just the terminology we use kind of lends itself to that.
Speaker B:Human resources.
Speaker B:I mean, we kind of brand people as an asset commodities.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, that's just kind of part of being in a capitalist society, I think.
Speaker B:And that mindset and that structure is really easy for people to live with when they're in a leadership position.
Speaker B:Like it just comes naturally, I think so.
Speaker A:True.
Speaker A:And we're in this, I think, unique time in history where, I mean, we've been asked to do more with less for years anyways.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But I mean, especially right now with AI coming in and with everybody being asked, hey, what of your job can I do so that we can have less people working here?
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:More than ever, I think people are viewed as heads rather than as humans.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And because of all of the above, you get less flexible, actually.
Speaker A:And I'll put a study in the show notes about this.
Speaker A:There's some really good research out there about it.
Speaker A:And then you're probably in a role where your mental energy is needed in a lot of different areas.
Speaker A:So you're being tasked with monitoring a lot of different things.
Speaker A:And you just can't take the perspective of all of your direct reports when you have so much on your plate in so many different areas.
Speaker A:Part of what management does is they get their work done through other people.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So your team is your force multiplier of the work that you do, and you may just see that as, hey, they're helping me do all this work because I have so much work to do.
Speaker A:All of the expectations there really can create a scenario where you have less ability to take the perspective of your direct reports and you have less flexibility and you have less empathy.
Speaker A:And there are actually studies that have been able to assign people into conditions of having power or not.
Speaker A:And it's been well established that people who aren't in power are usually better at empathy and are more flexible to the needs of others that they work with, whereas people in power are less flexible and more rigid.
Speaker A:But I don't want to sound bleak here.
Speaker A:As a leader, you can make the conscious effort to seek out the perspectives on your team and do good listening.
Speaker A:And as a senior manager or executive, you can make sure the leaders in your chain of command have workloads which allow for time to actually manage their people well, including the soft skills that they need to have time to use.
Speaker A:But actually, I mentioned narcissism earlier, narcissistic tendencies.
Speaker A:And even people with a lot of narcissistic tendencies can show a sort of type of empathy if they can see that doing this is beneficial to whatever they're trying to achieve.
Speaker B:What's in it for me comes back around again.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:If they can really see that partnering with the employee, having that conversation and building a path forward is going to be beneficial, that's going to help them get what they need.
Speaker A:Even narcissistic people can show a type of empathy if they're in that situation.
Speaker A:So taking that what's in it for me approach to the conversation, what's in it for the manager is definitely worth a try.
Speaker A:A couple of cool studies in the show notes if you want to read up on any of that.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:Thanks, Karen.
Speaker B:That's really good.
Speaker A:I love the psychology segment.
Speaker B:Me too.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:I think we're ready to close it out.
Speaker B:What do you think?
Speaker A:I think so.
Speaker A:Let's do it.
Speaker A:Here's the summary, folks.
Speaker A:Anya has gotten a lead role this year and her manager contacts her pretty regularly in her off hours.
Speaker A:He expects her to take action when he calls, and we're not sure if or how often she's getting paid for her time.
Speaker A:But what's also concerning is she's not seeing these as emergencies.
Speaker A:And on top of all that, when she pushes back, he's threatening to demote her.
Speaker A:We recommend that Anya consider trying to have an open conversation with her manager if she feels it's safe to do that.
Speaker A:She should approach it from a curious and respectful standpoint to try to understand what's driving this and approach any solutions based on the underlying issues she discovers.
Speaker A:Anya, don't forget that you can go to HR and ask for their help if she's working with hr.
Speaker A:We also have some recommendations for the HR office, so hopefully she can get HR involved and maybe because of their involvement, this won't happen to others at the company.
Speaker A:To our listeners, here are a few things we hope you'll take away from today.
Speaker A:When you're in a conflict situation, it can really help to assess the situation and find those underlying issues and design a strategy to target those underlying issues.
Speaker A:If you're in a leadership role, cultivate your empathy.
Speaker A:People in positions of power actually have decreasing empathy unless they're intentional about maintaining that empathy.
Speaker A:And if you're in a situation where your boundaries are being violated, it may help you to read the assertiveness workbook by Dr. Randy Peterson for some guidance.
Speaker A:One last thing.
Speaker A:Remember, many conversations can benefit from an approach focused on what's in it for the other person without overlooking your own needs.
Speaker A:We hope this chat gives you some ideas and tools to use if you find yourself in a workplace conflict, and.
Speaker B:All of the resources we referenced in the podcast can be found in the show Notes.
Speaker B:Please let us know your thoughts, ideas and questions.
Speaker B:Also, if you'd like to hear our thoughts about a workplace conflict scenario you're facing, reach out to us and we might include it in the podcast.
Speaker B:We want to hear from you.
Speaker B:Check out our website at thehrmediators.com or email us at thehrmediatorsmail.com thanks for joining.
Speaker A:Us on the HR Mediators.
Speaker A:Stay curious, stay kind, and stay brave.
Speaker A:You've got this and we're we'll see you next time.
